Anti-wrap ideas

[Jesus_man]

I need to do something about my axle wrap. I am thinking about something along these lines from Ruff Stuff:

But I want to invert the shackle so it hangs up.

Found another sketch online that illustrates my goal better:


The issue is that someday I want to push the rear axle back 3", so my idea was to make the upper link the main one, and the lower link would join it at the midpoint. Then on the frame end use a smaller OD tube to sleeve inside the main link 12"+/- so that it would extend when I get around to pushing the rear axle back.

Bushings at the axle makes a lot of sense, but should I consider doing something besides a heim at the frame?

This seems like the cheapest and most simple solution aside from linking and coilovers, but I am not ready to go that route.

[pgilbeau]

I have that Ruff Stuff kit sitting in my garage along with some new leaf springs. Not sure if I am going to try just the springs first or springs and the kit. Like you I am not ready to link it and it was the most reasonable option I could find. So far axle wrap has cost me a drive shaft, hopefully I get the new stuff in over the winter. If I get it in soon I will let you know how it goes.

[Jesus_man]

Just realized the ruff stuff kit won't work for me due to the way my shocks are mounted (inboard).

So I am now looking at other options. I am wondering if I added a truss at say 3-4" wide, would that be strong enough to build off of?

[pgilbeau]

Have you looked at Wild Horses Wrap Trap? That design might work with your shocks depending on how inboard they are. The only other option I am aware of is the Duff anti wrap which is basically like the Ruff Stuff kit but welded.

https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/W ... _rear_axle

[Jesus_man]

I am currently working on a version of the wrap trap. But I want a shackle at the frame end. And with flat area on either side of the diff, I think I could make two plates to weld to the housing to create the two attachment points at the axle.

[DLB]

Looked at a variety of anti-wrap devices based on strength, available room for install and use of the vehicle. I'm not an Independence trail sort of wheeler however I do haul a trailer and have hit some stuff that have broken axles and leafs. These are straight forward, do not seem to bind, still provide for articulation and heavy enough to take the occasional hit. Downside you give up a little clearance - like I said though they'll take a hit.

[Jesus_man]

solid rods like that will stop axle wrap, but unless they travel on the same arc as the axle, they do bind to some degree. I've also went to painstaking measures to have a flat belly so I need to find a solution that does not encroach on clearance.

I appreciate the feedback and idea tho!

I have spoken with Ruff Stuff and they said:
1. Put the system on the passenger side as that is where the torque is.
2. The shackle needs to be vertical in order to function the best. I agree, but I am not sure I can accomplish this without making the lower link adjustable.

[Gunnibronco]

Subscribed.

[Jesus_man]

I had to come back to this because I wanted to refresh my memory.
I bought this kit about 2 yrs ago:
https://www.barnes4wd.com/Anti-Wrap-Tra ... p_195.html

somewhere along the way I updated my drawing to look like this:


I need to make time to get this done by april-ish. I need to source the tube and the last joint (likely the Metal Cloak).

[Gunnibronco]

I'm glad you reposted on this. I'm going to add a torque bar when I put in my new rear axle.

I'm just going to use the regular heim joint at the shackle. With the bushings at the axle, I'm not sure what the Metalcloak would add at the shackle.

I'm going to cut my own axle side brackets. I think the center section design of the Rockassault housing would push the typical bracket too out from center to land on the tube. I'm also going to make my own shackles as well. Since I'm going to make some parts, I just ordered the pieces from Ruffstuff and sourced my DOM locally. I'm basing mine on Ruffstuff's "Heavy Duty" design.

https://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/R2300.html

A few questions I have:

Why does the shackle have to be facing "up" to work best? I think I can accomplish this, but some pics/designs show it "up" and others show it pointed "down".

How long should the shackle be? Without a body lift, my shackle will be limited in length by the distance from the bracket (on the tcase crossmember) and the floor. Is longer better?

I'm not sure I can fit it on the passenger side. My muffler is on that side. If it can go on the driver side, it would protect my fuel lines/pumps/accumulator from being damaged by a flailing drive shaft after u-joint breakage. After I broke my u-joint on the Rubicon, I realized how exposed these are. I may upgrade the tank to one with an in-tank pump, and move this tank to my 72, but in the meantime I like the idea of some DOM between my driveshaft and pressurized flammables.

I'm also wondering about tube thickness on the upper links for my radius arms and anti-wrap. Ruffstuff shows .25" on everything, Barnes shows .120". I think the uppers can be thinner than .25" since they won't be smacking rocks. I've already bought DOM and heim inserts for the .25". I need to decide if I want to save my 1.5x.25 for steering/track bars and maybe use some of my left over cage material for my uppers (1.75x.120).

[Jesus_man]

I need a heim where the lower link meets the upper because when i push the rear axle back that upper link need to be adjusted down. And for $39 the metal cloak joint is a good bang for the buck. My kit came with a heim so it'll be used at the intersection.

I think vertical is the ideal orientation. Probably doesn't matter too much when you are flexing but say youre climbing ledges. If that Shackle isn't vertical it will pull forward or backward when the force of axle wrap is applied to it. I think that may just introduce strange binding but I don't know you'd feel it or not?? I hope I have the room to mount mine vertically but I know it'll be really tight on the passenger side. Facing down could work but I wouldn't want it encroaching on my breakover angle. Plus the shackles are stronger in tension so if I were to rest the weight of the bronco on the lower link it wouldn't fold over.

My Shackle is 4" center to center but it boils down to how much you axle moves. What is your Shackle length on your leaves?

I think I'm targeting 3/16 thickness on my steel but again I need the upper link to sleeve so I'll settle for whatever makes sense.

[Gunnibronco]

So my spring shackles are 5" long, but it doesn't move as much as I had expected. The springs are fairly flat at rest so even at totally flat they don't push the shackle back much more than 1"-2" (I'm guessing I've never taken that measurement.)

In regards to mounting it on the passenger side, it would be a VERY tight squeeze for my truck. I noticed the James Duff torque arm mounts to the driver side. I wonder how much difference it would make and if fighting for space on the passenger side is worth it.

JD suggests the shackle be installed close to the 12 o'clock position. Their shackle has 2 different lengths available, but no mention of why to choose one length vs the other.

[Jesus_man]

I think either side will work, but the idea on the passenger side is to try and stop the twisting force where it occurs rather than that force being transferred thru the axle housing?? I suspect it wouldn't really matter unless you are pushing big horse power, but with the Atlas, we are high torque. Your axle housings should be plenty strong. I am going to see if it's feasible to get mine on the passenger side, but I am not opposed to the drivers side.

For talking purposes, with a 4" shackle in a vertical position, when it travels on the arc at 15 deg, it allows the axle to move just over an inch. So for a 15 deg forward and 15 rearward, you have a total linear travel of 2 1/8". Expanding the angle to 20 deg in either direction enables get a total linear axle travel of 2 13/16". If that makes any sense. I could post a picture of needed.

It would be quite interesting to see how much that axle moves when flexed. If only I had a forklift!

[Gunnibronco]

I think either side will work, but the idea on the passenger side is to try and stop the twisting force where it occurs rather than that force being transferred thru the axle housing?? I suspect it wouldn't really matter unless you are pushing big horse power, but with the Atlas, we are high torque. Your axle housings should be plenty strong. I am going to see if it's feasible to get mine on the passenger side, but I am not opposed to the drivers side.

For talking purposes, with a 4" shackle in a vertical position, when it travels on the arc at 15 deg, it allows the axle to move just over an inch. So for a 15 deg forward and 15 rearward, you have a total linear travel of 2 1/8". Expanding the angle to 20 deg in either direction enables get a total linear axle travel of 2 13/16". If that makes any sense. I could post a picture of needed.

It would be quite interesting to see how much that axle moves when flexed. If only I had a forklift!

Thanks.

I took the leaf pack apart and only used the main leaf to check clearances and travel. That is when I noticed how little the shackle moved. I didn't take specific measurements of the shackle though. I don't want to take things apart again, there is a retainer that wraps around the pack and it has to be pried open to take the pack apart. I'm worried it might break if opened again.

I can get pretty close to an accurate measurement. I'll figure out where the shackle will be with the pack flat and get you a number.

I understand your description of the arc in relation to axle travel. Obviously the shackle needs to clear everything in it's travel. I don't think that will be a problem.

So, off the top of my head (I need to sit down and draw/think about this, so I might be off):
The shorter the shackle, the longer the arc to get the same axle movement?

Does the increased leverage of the longer shackle allow it swing easier and therefore the axle can move easier? I'm not sure this is relevant.

Is there any other advantage or disadvantage to shorter/longer shackles?

Assuming the shackle is at 12 o'clock at rest:
-When the axle moves down/forward the shackle is still going to be swinging rearward because the axle will be dropping away more than the moving forward.
Therefore at full droop you wouldn't want the shackle to pass 9 o'clock or it may flip towards 6 and not return to 12? This seems like it would/could break stuff or twist springs. (aka: a good reason to start the shackle at 12 o'clock)
-When the axle moves up/rearward the shackle is swinging forward because the axle will move up more than rearward.

Please correct any wrong think in the statements above. I'd love to see how a system moves on video or a graphic, I think it would really help. I think a high arched spring pack will move the torque arm shackle significantly different from a flat leaf pack. So much going on here, it probably deserves a Youtube video like the leaf spring/shackle video.

I'll probably have more questions lol.

[Jesus_man]

I don't think this merits you pulling apart your leaf pack. I would really be surprised if these axles moved more than a couple inches fore and aft. Perhaps you could look at the splines on the driveshaft to get an idea? You can only see the exposed ones, but perhaps there is a mark where the grease piled up and you could double that number.

Yes, the shorter the shackle, the more in will need to travel. And again, I really doubt the axle moves enough to allow the shackle to flip upside down with a 4" length.

I'd have to model it, but motion stuff isn't in my wheelhouse. My thinking is that the top of the shackle will follow the travel of the axle. On compression, the axle moved back, so will the shackle. On droop, the axle moves forward, as does the shackle.

You posed this video on your thread I believe:
https://youtu.be/BhqZkF2D6ss?t=271

Note how much the rear of the leaf pack moves. That seems to be maybe 2", but I know my springs don't ever get flat. Again, I would love to see it real life.

[Strike2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhqZkF2D6ss

I'm not sure if this helps but have you seen this video seems informative.

[Gunnibronco]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhqZkF2D6ss

I'm not sure if this helps but have you seen this video seems informative.

I have seen that video. I wish it was up when I was installing my leaf springs.

I wish someone would add a torque arm to that Board O' Leafs. I'm probably overthinking this but seeing it in action would really help.

I don't think this merits you pulling apart your leaf pack. I would really be surprised if these axles moved more than a couple inches fore and aft. Perhaps you could look at the splines on the driveshaft to get an idea? You can only see the exposed ones, but perhaps there is a mark where the grease piled up and you could double that number.

Yeah, I'm not taking it apart. I bet you are right, I'd guess less than 2" forward or back at most. A high arched spring set would move more than mine. I'll be able to get a better measurement pretty easy.

Yes, the shorter the shackle, the more in will need to travel. And again, I really doubt the axle moves enough to allow the shackle to flip upside down with a 4" length.

I only think you'd flip the shackle if you mounted it at 10 o'clock.

I'd have to model it, but motion stuff isn't in my wheelhouse. My thinking is that the top of the shackle will follow the travel of the axle. On compression, the axle moved back, so will the shackle. On droop, the axle moves forward, as does the shackle.

I thought that too, except the vertical motion of the axle will also push or pull on the shackle opposite of the horizontal movement. The net result will be interesting to see. I did a quick Youtube search but didn't come up with anything.

For example:

Compression-
the axle moves back 1"ish, 'pulling' on the shackle
the axle also moves up 4"ish, 'pushing' on the shackle

Droop-
the axle moves forward 1"ish, 'pushing' on the shackle
the axle also moves down 4"ish, 'pulling' on the shackle

Actually this would only happen under certain circumstances. Since we normally are flexing one side, the center won't move as much as the wheels. It would likely happen like this if you were in the desert flying through the whoops with the axle flat at full compression and droop.

[Gunnibronco]

I tried to do some reading on anti-wrap bars today, mostly on Pirate.
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/axle- ... le.351224/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/axle- ... ar.713405/
https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/lets- ... ps.464319/

JD have you considered building a "slip and twist" arm instead using a shackle at the frame? It would allow you to add length without rebuilding it when you stretch the wheelbase.

img_1921.jpg

Here is the info I found the most helpful.

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My takeaways:
Mount the arm on the passenger side if possible, also as close to center of the pumpkin as possible.

Shackle is best in tension (above the pivot point), less likely to invert, but ok in compression below the pivot.

Shackle angle and length of the arm affects antisquat.
-The longer the arm, the less antisquat.
-From the description of how instant center affects antisquat, the shackle in tension moves the IC point forward quite a bit, reducing antisquat.

I don't think we have much choice in how long to make the arm. To some extent we can adjust the angle of the shackle->IC->antisquat. I don't really fully understand antisquat/antidive/etc. so I honestly don't know what to do with this info. LOL. I like how my rig is running and don't want to have the anti-wrap make a big change.

[Jesus_man]

Chad, my plan is to build them with a telescoping or sleeving action, but this will only be used for when I push the axle back. Check my picture above and you'll see the upper tube is sleeved. However, you can't weld the lower link to the upper link solid because when you push the axle back, the intersection between the upper tube centerline and the vertical shackle centerline rises (11/16" in my case). So you need to have the ability to pull that back down somehow. My intent is not to allow the sleeved section to do the twisting tho because my fear is that gravity will want the shackle to fall forward or backward pushing the upper tube in or out and then not in the ideal location to control anti-wrap. In fact, I would be concerned with this allowing the axle to move as much as it did before the bar was installed. My plan is to either run a good tack weld at the sleeved section, or weld in a set-screw device to keep the shackle vertical at rest. Game day decision.

In the one photo you snagged, it appears not to have a shackle. If that arm travels in the same arc as the leaf springs, that could work. I'm afraid that overtime and with rust, the slip technique will fail. But building in the shackle and the ability for the device to twist on the axis of the upper arm, allows all the flexibility you need and eliminates the ability for the axle to wrap.

Good info!

[Gunnibronco]

You are right the twist/slip style does not have a shackle. It's a style I had never seen before and thought of your situation. In fact someone mentioned they were using it because they were going to stretch their wheelbase in the future.

Complaints of the twist/slip style included noise, rust, distortion of the outer tube. But many were happy with running it.

After reading what I did, I realized I might have under estimated the stresses this part will see. I'm glad I did the reading, I won't be skimping on the construction.

[Jesus_man]

That is interesting on material thickness. I did not read the threads you posted yet, but Barnes said 1/8" wall was sufficient. I felt that was awfully thin.
But with the sleeving action I need, I am going to be forced to make it from 1/4" or 3/16" wall stuff, likely DOM.

[Gunnibronco]

Everyone seemed to agree on 1/4" for the lower link to prevent rock impact damage. I had heard/read the upper link could be thinner due to location, but I'm going to stick with 1/4" there now.

One person mentioned a common failure point is where the upper and lower links join. He said it would bend just past the intersection. He suggested making that point as close to the shackle as possible.

After reading I'll be adding some 1/4" plate to tie the axle bracket halves together. I eyeballed the bracket location on my axle housings last night and will be making a knock off of the Ballistic radius arm/coil spring perch for my axle bracket. It has 7" link separation. Most suggestions were 6" minimum and 8" for bigger/heavier/high HP rigs. So 7" seems like a good compromise for me. The lower link will barely fall below the axle tube and the upper link will be very close to the top of the pumpkin, so I won't be adding anything to get hung up or hit the floor of my truck.

[Jesus_man]

I am only slightly concerned about the bending force at the location where the two links meet, but I also know that it has survived reasonable well without this device, so I figure with finesse driving, I don't think I should have any problems. My plan is to make the lower tube as long as possible so long as it doesn't impede on clearance. I am hoping it hangs *just* below the driveshaft to offer it some protection.

The bushing separation on the axle brackets for my kit is 9". I hope that's not going to cause issues. I will have to modify them anyway, so perhaps I adjust as necessary. I may add some spacers between these brackets, but there shouldn't be any sideways forces here. Unless a big rock gets lodged up there.

I am more concerned about the tabs where the lower link meets the upper. I want to gusset that as best I can and it'll have some crushing forces pushing up.

[Jesus_man]

I settled on my tube/pipe. I have 6ft of 1 1/2" sch. 80 pipe and 2ft of 1.5"x.24 wall DOM tube. All that was a hefty $75! But the supplier was able to find me a piece of pipe where the weld bead wasn't huge, so the fit is pretty nice! It's stout enough I shouldn't need to worry about the tube itself.

If all goes to plan, I will be building this setup this weekend! Then I have to send my driveshaft back to Tom Woods as I think the lower yoke is no longer straight. Too many explosions there. Hope this contraption stops that!

[Jesus_man]

Had a successful install this weekend!

An issue I will have to address is that it appears the shock body may contact the upper link at full stuff. So I may need to drill another hole in my shock mount and move it outboard. The issue with that is it may try to bottom out. They are old shocks and probably need replacing, so I just may see what I can find to replace them with once I get positioning right. Or build brackets that weld to the top of the mount that raise the mounting hole up.

Again, this is the Barnes4wd kit using 1.5" sch. 80 pipe and 1.5" O.D. x .24" wall DOM. I added the Metal Cloak duroflex joint at the top of the shackle and moved their heim to the lower link for adjustability when I push the rear axle back.











I am anxious to try it out but my driveshaft needs some TLC first. It's headed to Tom Woods today for a new pinion yoke and probably a u-joint. Have a trip to the Black Hills in April, but I think this is all I have to get back together before it's ready! I hope to test it on a snow bank before then tho!

[Gunnibronco]

Nice!

I'm looking forward to hearing how it works.

[Strike2]

Nice Job ! Although working with a lift is cheating

[Jesus_man]

That was SOOOO nice! A friend at church has connections to this shop via his son and that made it a lot nicer! Never thought I'd want a lift in my "forever home", but I may change my mind!

[Jesus_man]

Finally got my bronco and replacement parts in the same location, so I swapped out my damaged yoke and installed my repaired driveshaft and went for a ride. I'll say that even just on pavement the tires get planted so much better. I didn't realize how sloppy the springs were causing it to feel under hard load. Confidence inspiring for sure. Now I need to move my shocks a bit to clear upper link. I'll need to see if I can just drill another hole in my upper shock mount or if I need to weld a bracket to the top to avoid shocks bottoming out. With my tool scattered at different storage units, drilling would be easiest, but perhaps not the right fix.

I will say the u-straps that come with the yoke are JUNK! Not long enough and very soft as one easily stripped out. I had some spicer brand straps, so I installed those instead. Still a little on the shorter side, but the nuts are threaded on 90% of the way.

Going back to my Amazon review of the yoke reminded me that I need to clearance the yoke to clear the u-joint at extreme angles. Glad I saw that!!

[Gunnibronco]

Good to hear.

It's amazing how one "upgrade" cascades into 10 other jobs, and how everything seems to be in the way of the next part to install.